For more than a decade, Hank Green has been at the forefront of online content creation. He and his brother John created VidCon, the world's largest video conference, and steadily established a popular online community. You may know that Hank is the host of a science "crash course" video, his "Vlogbrothers" series, or his many other YouTube channels. We can't think of better people to help us understand where we have been, where we are now, and the future direction of online content. He joined in discussing the growing popularity of platforms such as TikTok, the use of the Internet to do good, and how monetization can develop in an increasingly competitive space. He also answered questions from WITHpod audience Casey, Dan, and Jake. At the end, Chris made a special shout for Arthur. He has listened to 45 episodes of WITHpod this year, totaling 2,495 minutes.

Note: This is a rough transcript-please forgive any typos.

Hank Green: I like that more people than ever can make a living from creation. But I also feel very contradictory about those well-performing creations. Some of them are art forms, connections, and education that I think are very positive and wonderful. I think some of them are really deep in human psychology, making us sadder, more isolated and angry.

Chris Hayes: Hello, welcome to why is this happening? Come with me, your master, Chris Hayes. I think I talked a lot in the show, but I am 42 years old, which is the first Internet-native age I think. When my team started contacting the Internet at the age of 13 or 14, this was correct. The first type of people in the true sense are on the Internet. You know, they use it as a part of their lives during adolescence, certainly not like young people. People are like smartphones.

It is not everywhere, but at the age when I gradually grow up, it is generating a kind of public appeal. This has had an incredible impact on my life and career. You know, I was a freelance writer in Chicago in my early years.

One thing that was truly transformative for me was that I lived in Chicago with Kate, she worked in a domestic violence advocacy organization, and then she was in law school. I’m publishing things, but I’m connected to other political and media centers outside of Chicago through the Internet, blogs, and email list services.

This kind of connection really helped me a lot in my career. I was able to get in touch with people to some extent, sell to people, and publish articles for publications that I thought would be more difficult in the pre-Internet era. I am one of such a group of people-we are like young upstarts who write blogs.

We are opening the door. We don't care what the gatekeeper thinks. Did I say the doorman? (Laughs) We don't care what the gatekeeper thinks of us. We are hitting the door. I think that is Markos Moulitsas' book Crashing the Gates.

All of this is to illustrate, you know, death and taxes, we have grown old and things have changed. Then the kids, they got their Tiky and their Toky, and they are doing their viral dance. You feel like a grandpa, because, you know, you are looking at it, but you don't understand it.

You have your cyrpto and your NFT, and (laughs) everything is messy. And some people manage to, for example, keep, which is an incredible thing, for a long time to stay fluent, relevant, and like the Internet today.

I find it incredible to be able to do this. And these people have a very interesting point. I think what the Internet we have now is, what it used to be, and how it has changed. If you listen to podcasts, I will think about it a lot.

This is one of my (laughs), for example, the obsession of the top five. So today’s guests are basically people my age. His name is Hank Green. You may know him. Well, among a certain number of people, he is very famous, and some people may not know who he is.

He is a video blogger, video blogger. He is the creator of Vlog Brothers, he and his brother John Green, John is also a very talented person and a writer. He really likes these scientific explanation videos. He has a podcast.

He is the author of books, including the science fiction novel "A Beautiful Stupid Endeavour." He is an entrepreneur. But he has always been an Internet existence (music), for example, 15 years. He is now on Tik Tok. On YouTube, he saw the development of how the Internet works and does not work, how it is monetized or not, and what commercial pressures are there. I just think that almost no one is better than Hank Green to talk about the current situation of the Internet and its development direction. Hank, it's nice to have you on this show.

Hank Green: Thank you very much. This is a dream come true. (laughter)

Chris Hayes: Well, Hank, I have been observing you and your brother, you know, 15 or 20 years old, I mean, how long has it been—

Hank Green: Well, I mean, it has appeared in video since 2007.

Chris Hayes: What was the first one you did? Because I remember seeing it like, "Wow, this guy is good at this."

Hank Green: Maybe not the first. For example, the first one was when making the worst video ever made at my friend Brian’s house on New Year’s Eve, I thought, “This is what we’re going to do. We won’t talk to each other for a whole year. (laughs) But we will make videos for each other, "Me and my brother.

Chris Hayes: What was the first thing that became big enough that it would enter my consciousness from the side?

Hank Green: This may be my first Harry Potter song. If we can remember that far, it was released the week after the last Harry Potter book was published. That, on the scale of the time, went viral, which meant, like, hundreds of thousands of views.

Chris Hayes: Yes. (Laughter) It's weird. Because, like, people can let go now, like skateboarding Tik Tok and it's like—

Chris Hayes: --Five million, yes. It's like, (laughs) it was totally accidental. This is what I want to talk about. But let's go back to the beginning, because I think first of all, tell me basically where you came from, how you grew up, how you started, what you got into the Internet.

Because I think we are about the same age. I often talk about this on this show because my enduring obsession with the Internet is, for example, the Internet and why—why I thought it used to be great, why I thought it was not so great now, but how can we regain it? Something awesome. I think that is--

Hank Green: Well, who knows?

Chris Hayes: I know. But it's also very similar. The baby boomers of a certain generation are like, "No one rock anymore. (Laughter) It's like, it used to rock. It's like the Rolling Stones." I think, like, too lame, But I feel it 100% strongly. I think we are the same generation. So how old are you, first of all?

Chris Hayes: Yes, exactly the same. Yes.

Hank Green: Moreover, we are a fairly early Internet family. We have a 14.4 internet modem.

Hank Green: So if you know you will be able to put it down in history. I like CompuServe and AOL, and my own bulletin board. My first attempt on the Internet was a Mars website, where I collected information about Mars.

I thought, "This is a Martian website." Before Wikipedia, if you want to learn about Mars, you might visit my website. But the first time I really created something that I thought was a bit creative was when I did a terrible and boring quality control job in the laboratory.

I made a website about transportation policy called ihatei4.com. If you have ever been to Orlando or anywhere in Central Florida, you will know I-4. This is the bad path everyone needs. (Laughter) It can't be avoided. Just like the Internet.

This is a terrible place, everyone must go. You know, what a terrible thing this is. But it's also a bit like, "How can we do better? How can we do sustainable transportation in Orlando, Florida, a place deeply, deeply not built for sustainable transportation?"

Chris Hayes: I think I think you and your brother are like hatching from an egg to the Internet (SLUR). Like, tell me, like, your growing up experience and the universe you grew up in, what kind of spirit is what, and how you got this specific, you know, a little (laughing) Internet-savvy nerd spirit.

Hank Green: I mean, this is where I live. Like, my dad is a big nerd, so this is why we ended up having computers at home.

Chris Hayes: What did he do?

Hank Green: For most of my childhood, he was the director of The Nature Conservancy of Florida. So he is engaged in land protection work. Then after--

Hank Green: He works in real estate, which is a similar industry. Now he is actually back in the land protection work. He also served as a documentary filmmaker for a period of time. So he has the same background in content creation and video.

This is actually very helpful for us in the early stages of making content on the Internet and making videos on the Internet. But, like, the reality is that I always have an online friend group. John’s first girlfriend, for example, the serious girlfriend he met on the Internet, for example, when it’s not a normal thing—

Hank Green: What really makes us interested and excited about the Internet is not the information part, but the community part. When we saw the community gathered around videos, it became very attractive to us, especially for John, who was involved in some early fan communities of early video projects. That's really exciting.

Chris Hayes: There is a connection between the fan community, the intense community, the passion for things, the nerd culture and the strong community of the Internet culture. I think you are the link among them, and in some ways, you are among them. One of the pioneers. . But why are these things put together? Like, let's go back to their origins (laughter), because in some ways, this is indeed the origin of our entire culture, right?

Chris Hayes: But, like before it became our entire culture, why did all these things come together? Because I am also one of them.

Hank Green: Yes, I mean, it’s because, for example, in this situation, maybe you live in a small town of 200,000 people, and maybe one in every 100,000 people really likes anime ( For example, it might be in the 80s or 90s), or it's like really entering Magic: The Gathering. Therefore, the Internet allows less popular things to have their popular space. Just like, for truly radical beliefs, the exact same function has also been proven to be correct. So, for example--

Chris Hayes: Yeah, (laughs) exactly—

Hank Green: ——This is awesome——

Hank Green: --About the Internet--

Chris Hayes: Yes, you are the only Nazi in your town.

Chris Hayes: I mean, and then, "Oh, wow. There is a complete community"--

Hank Green: Yes, there are a bunch of them. "Look at these Nazis. Wow, I can really find my home." This is something I have been paying attention to. For example, many of the things we hate the Internet are that the Internet is good at what we hope it is good at, but only for The wrong person or the wrong way or it is catching the wrong human impulse.

I like that more people than ever can make a living from creation. But I also feel very contradictory about those well-performing creations. Some of them are art forms, connections, and education that I think are very positive and wonderful, and I think some of them are really deep in the depths of human psychology, making us more sad, more isolated and angry.

Chris Hayes: Yes. Yes, this kind of affinity community that spans a wide geographic distance is suitable for people with obscure preferences and passions.

Chris Hayes: Or just unpopular. Like, I think this is a decisive feature. And for me, another thing I discovered at the time, you said community, to me, this is also information, just like your Mars. It's incredible.

I mean, I mean, I’m starting to be nostalgic again now, but, like 13 or 14, it’s like the idea that you can literally read (laugh) anything you want to know and then spend it, I will fall no matter what, I mean, you know, obscure political facts. Or, "What's the matter with the teapot dome? (Laughs) Someone mentioned it. What is the teapot dome?" You know, it's like.

Hank Green: Yes. And I still remember, very early on, such as talking to people who disagree with me. It's like, you know, you found a creationist, or a creation found you. Like, I want to be involved. I want to ask my own point of view through their challenge.

This is an early lesson, knowing that the Internet is not good at really convincing people, for example, they must change their minds. But it is good at, for example, helping me understand where I am, and, for example, I think it’s important to learn this lesson, for example, I’m not here to change my mind. I might be here just to explore an idea.

Chris Hayes: So now I'm looking at you, you are in a very familiar visual grammar, well, (laughs) it's like, setting. What surprised me was its breadth and dominance. I'm watching you. You are wearing headphones.

You have a microphone. You have something P-popper about it. There are some bookshelves in the background. It's like you are sitting in an ordinary room. You are framed by your computer. Now, it's like the main aesthetic that people talk about on the Internet (laughter), I don't know if this was created specifically by you, but you are really the first one. I want you to talk about how this happened. Are you surprised by the extent to which it has become the basic visual grammar of the video Internet?

Hank Green: I don't think I was surprised by this. Like, now I am really looking at my computer. The computer on the other side of this screen is the best, my human non-meat mind, this is the best version, you know, the universe I actually live in, this is the window through which I observe it. So, like that part of it, it's like, you know, this is the observation point.

Chris Hayes: Yes, you are talking to the world.

Chris Hayes: Like, you are actually talking to a device, which is the gateway to the world. So you talk to that world on the stage.

Hank Green: You know, when I make a video, I turn aside. That is where my camera is set up. It just sits there. But, like, that is the window through which the world sees me. And, you know, I think a lot about what authenticity means, for example, about this wonderful thing and the danger of this self-expression, you know, it’s like, I’ve been doing it for a long time and I’m used to it and It's like drawing my own lines.

But, like, everyone puts these lines in different places. And, like, all of this is new, so we don't have good rules to regulate its types and taboos. Therefore, just like you invite someone into your space, which looks very much like their space, it provides you with a set of information that you can use to judge them.

Like, in my video, I have always had this map of Narnia since the beginning, and now, it's like an internal joke that I can't get rid of because it has always been there. And I have a bookshelf. What does the bookshelf tell you?

It tells you a lot about who I am. It's like, I-I'm a nerd big enough, and I want to put a bookshelf behind me. Then, if you want to, pay attention, you will find that they are all, just like science fiction and business books. Then (laughs) Then you will say, "Oh, he is, like, a terrible nerd." (Laughter) And, like science fiction.

So this is an invitation to enter normal life. This is both a powerful thing and a terrible thing, because I think we need to figure out how to do it correctly, because it is—this is what people expect now. You know, there are always performers.

But to what extent you expect your performance to be your legitimate and true self, I think this is very bad. You know, this is always a show, and both the performer and the audience should understand this.

Chris Hayes: This is interesting. I mean, what I do, I live by acting. But in a sense, I think the people watching the show are like me, which is similar. I mean, this is an enlarged version because I am performing. But the voice twitches, my jokes, my expressions, for example, if you see me, I basically talk like that. (laugh)

Hank Green: Yes. Yes, um, I mean, this is basically the way I speak. And, it's like, this is how it is: no part of my performance is unreal to me. Like, I'm not pretending, like, interest in science. I'm not pretending, like, (laughs) I want to--

Chris Hayes: That really is—

Hank Green: --Go down--

Chris Hayes: --Interesting, if all this is a little bit. (Laughter) Like, everything you do--

Hank Green: I hate chemistry—

Chris Hayes: --You just drink--

Hank Green: --Push it over (laughs)--

Chris Hayes: --Watching a football game. That's it. That is your life.

Hank Green: Yes. So what you see is real, it is real to me. But there are many that you haven't seen (laughs), do you know?

Hank Green: And I think it's becoming more and more important for the people who do what I do. This is more and more people. There may be millions of people doing this in the United States, you know, Five digits or more. Therefore, many people earn $10,000 per year. This is certainly not their full-time job.

But, like, money is important enough, and it's like an important part of their income and life. I think it is very important for the people who work for me to realize this, like, yes, you must be you. But you don't have to be everyone.

Find a place to live and try to stay there. Because it is really easy for a person, let it take over your private life, I think it is very important to diversify the sources of meaning you have. If all of this came from the Internet, it would be extremely destructive.

Then the second point is to know when you are out of your comfort zone, because you will get yourself into trouble. Because, like, this Internet knows when you messed up. It's easy to mess up when you leave your driveway.

Chris Hayes: As far as this type of narrow focus is concerned, as you said, there are millions of people involved now, namely online videos, YouTube videos, and now many Tik Tok are facing the camera alone Speak, you know, for (UNINTEL) a better word.

I think that's it, right? (Laughter) So this is where I find it attractive, because if people have been listening to this podcast, they probably know me, you know, and are very fascinated by these concerns now because I am doing something.

Like, you know, cable news or local news, for example, all these production elements are for people's attention, right? It's like, dive, sound. In some ways, these are just visual elements of preconscious attention, such as sirens or casino design, right?

It's like, these (laughs) things are like, well, bright lights. There is a flash. There is a lot of noise. These things will attract your attention. These are (laughs) what commercial television does. It's like, "This is a siren. This is a fog machine.

"Look, look, look, look." You know, there is nothing you do, but it will attract attention. It is not only eye-catching as a one-off work, but also as a genre. And this is so fascinating to me. Because I do think there are some things, like, great. We can get into some not-so-good things, but if you promote it as a show, this is not the kind of thing anyone will do, (laughs) like it, finish it. No, seriously.

Hank Green: No, yes, yes, yes.

Chris Hayes: But it works. It really works.

Hank Green: And, even now, there are still many things on Tik Tok that cannot be used as a YouTube channel. Because it is very good at discovering, because it is very good at showing talent, for example, you suddenly see all these new types of content that are not even available on YouTube.

So, just like the way you see YouTube shows cannot be played on TV, now Tik Toks cannot be played on YouTube. All this changed so quickly. I don't know how we did it, for example, we started very early. So the learning curve is a bit self-care, because there is no fierce competition in terms of quality content on YouTube.

There are good things (I'm not saying there are no good things), but there are many good things now. So we must learn as the platform develops. Then, like, you know, we only ask for four minutes or eight minutes a week, so if you want to watch all the videos, two videos, two four-minute videos.

This is a small problem. What we really want to do is to truly respect people's time, which is not offensive, but cable news is not good at it. (Laughs) Like, I think a lot of things it is good at are like, "How do we fill all these times of the day?" It must be live broadcast, because, like, who has time to produce so much content— —

Chris Hayes: Well, it is also reverse engineering. No one did it. Ted Turner produced 24-hour cable news. Then you have to make these things-

Hank Green: How do you fill in?

Chris Hayes: Yes, that's right. Like, it doesn't work in the opposite direction. I can’t wake up, like, "Yes, I have about 17 minutes today." (Laughter)

Chris Hayes: And, you know, sometimes I wake up and think I have about 17 minutes today. But I must find another 27.

Hank Green: This is a very good thing, for example, these new formats sometimes force you to speed up. So, you know, Tik Tok has been 15 seconds for a long time. Then a minute passed. So, it's like, it forces you to grab someone, grab them, and let them go.

YouTube is not as much as it used to be, but it used to be very much like, "You have to catch them. There is Reddit in another tab. Their email is in another tab. 1,000 videos on the sidebar are very Eye-catching, the thumbnails are visually very interesting. You have to catch them"--

Chris Hayes: Yes. They beckoned right there, as if they were in the same browser.

Hank Green: Yes (confirmed). How are you at the window with you-how do you teach chemistry in that environment, Chris? Like, this is a difficult (laughter) challenge.

Chris Hayes: Yes, yes. So, what did you find? Let me do this. Some people may not have watched your video, so accept it (UNINTEL). Why don't you explain, for example, give an example of what you did after our short break.

Chris Hayes: These videos are starting to become your core content. For example, give an example to those who have heard this but haven't watched it.

Hank Green: I mean, the latest video recorded as of this time is about helium. I have always been frustrated with people's misunderstandings about helium, which inspires me deeply. (Laughs) This is just a very Internet experience. The people on the internet were wrong and I had to make a video about it, especially the way we lack helium.

I think it’s easy to say, “The problem is party balloons.” The problem is not party balloons. The problem is the production of helium, which we are not good at, and for very strange economic reasons we have not prioritized it, which is cool.

This is a cool and interesting thing, but I can talk about chemistry. I started to talk about physics. I started to talk about economics. I can talk about all of these within the framework, such as the things you know most from the party store.

Chris Hayes: This is a good example. You did a good job, and you did a good job from very early on, like, in a relatively short period of time, open something and explain it in a way that I left, "Well. Cool," here it is One thing, for example, maybe this is something I would share with someone. Like, not just share it on the Internet, but also, like, may tell them in the bar. It's like, "Do you know why we have it, you know"--

Hank Green: Yes. "Actually, do you know the Federal Helium Reserve"——

Chris Hayes: "Actually," yes. (Laughter) From what you learned from the metrics you got from the back, how much did you improve on that focus?

Hank Green: Yes, I mean, for example, we have an early video, and the early failure of YouTube was that it chose the exact middle of your video as the thumbnail of your video. So we call them thumbnails now, and you can change them. But at that time, it was not the same thing.

Just like, you can concentrate and intentionally make the center frame of the video a specific image. Getting clicks is always very important. Once you get a click, keep your attention. I mean, it's a lot like title writing and main writing. It's like, you have to get them first, you know, a few words, or you will lose them.

Chris Hayes: So you’ve been on YouTube for a while. With YouTube starting from this kind of DIY, I mean, YouTube itself was never a real DIY platform, even though I guess before Google bought it, You know, it was made by some random people. This is so interesting, it's like, passed down from generation to generation, it's a place for young people to watch TV. It's like, kids watch YouTube the way we watched TV in the past.

Hank Green: Then they use Tik Tok like we used to use YouTube. (laugh)

Chris Hayes: Yes. That's right, exactly. I want you to talk, I want to spend some time on Tik Tok now. Because again, it's a bit like, explain this to Grandpa.

Hank Green: This is strange.

Chris Hayes: I am fascinated by Tik Tok. I think it has a lot of interesting things. But you are a person of my age, and you have managed to continuously subvert (laughs) Internet culture in an incredibly impressive way over the past 14 years.

It's like, I have started to feel like my parents in things, for example, how they must feel about things I like. It won't make me feel good. It makes me feel old. I really don't like it. I think this feeling is the reason why you can't understand more, because you are like, "I don't like that feeling, so I won't try to figure it out," you know?

Hank Green: Yes. Well, I have a huge advantage, that is, children know who I am because I have taught them biology and chemistry. So I have this YouTube series called Crash Course. They are complete courses on many different things. We have covered economics, anatomy, physiology and literature.

But I did a series of biology and chemistry. I hosted those. So they know who I am. Then it's like, "Oh, that idiot who taught me chemistry is on Tik Tok. It's funny." Like, the fact that I was there was humorous to them. And, like, so I have to lean towards that. It's like, "I'm old and don't know what happened"--

Chris Hayes: It's like Grandpa's breakdancing.

Hank Green: Yes. (Laughs) Yes. This is the whole spirit of Tik Tok in my first few months. After a while, it was like, "Oh, buddy. I have 2 million fans and obviously I am good at this. So I have to be good at it now. I just need to, like, pretend I am Tik Toker," I think I Yes.

Chris Hayes: Well, what's the-so what's the difference? For example, explain what Tik Tok is. What are the restrictions? What job? Nothing? How is it different from YouTube?

Hank Green: I think what we need to remember is that it turns out that media has always been information, and whenever new media appears, it controls the genre created on the platform. So, just like YouTube created YouTube videos, but it also created beauty videos.

It created the game video. It created a video blog. It created a family video blog. It created a prank channel. You know, these new media have spawned many different types of content. The way it does this is these very subtle differences between it and the TV.

Therefore, the algorithm prioritizes the viewing time or the way they like or watch it, the way people interact with the content, the people present, what they like, and the different categories of people present. For example, what content is most profitable? So you will notice that there is much more financial content in the world than it should appear. This is because it is easy to monetize these things. There is a lot of beauty content because it is easy to monetize.

Chris Hayes: Why are those easy to monetize?

Hank Green: Financial content is easy to monetize because it is next to a large amount of cash. (Laughs) So, just like people in the financial industry make a lot of money because they are close to the flow of funds. Therefore, turning people into, you know, a new well management or bank, such as Robin Hood or Fidelity or anything else, can gain a lot. It may be very valuable during the entire life cycle of the customer. You are talking about five or six figure values.

Chris Hayes: Wait, so you're saying that from a creator's point of view, you're saying that advertising is for content sale--

Hankgreen: Advertising, yes, advertising and then--

Chris Hayes: Yes, I just want to—

Hank Green: --sold to--

Chris Hayes: Incredible innovation, just for those who don't follow this, yes, it's like YouTube created a system where anyone can upload a video, and then they handle all the advertising backends. The creators get a piece of it. Therefore, you will encounter situations where, for example, the most powerful advertising company in the world is dealing with all the messy things that you might not be able to do on your own. But you can make things, and if people like it and you start to do digital, then Google’s entire advertising sales infrastructure can now be applied to what you do in the bedroom, and you can start to see money from it.

Hank Green: Yes. It's a bit like how the money came from in the first place. But the main source of income for most people is the direct relationship with the brand. So if I’m producing financial content, I can work with Fidelity and say, “This video is sponsored by Fidelity.”

Hank Green: And, like, it's more valuable, because I can tell you the pitch instead of rolling forward.

Chris Hayes: What you see in the podcast space is so obvious, there—

Chris Hayes: --The host reads the advertisement, yes.

Hank Green: Yes. Then it’s interesting that the second most common source of people’s main source of income for online content (which surprised me because it is relatively new and growing very fast) is their own company. Therefore, the beauty creator introduced a makeup palette.

Or financial creators offer a course that you can learn from them. Or, for example, I started a charity sock club subscription, which is the most income-generating thing of anything we have done so far, even though I don’t make money from it because I don’t need to make money from it.

Now, our main priority is to do interesting things rather than profitable things. And, like, this change is huge, and it's bigger than I think many people expected. It's like all the ways of working in the past will change a lot. So, like, I would rather buy tea from my internet friend Zack, he has a tea company, and his content makes me laugh, rather than I want to buy tea from any tea company. I can't think of a name.

Chris Hayes: Yes, exactly. I just wanted to say, "Then, what is it like?" (Laughs) Well, I mean, this is--

Hank Green: Numi. There is one. Wow.

Hank Green: I got one--

Chris Hayes: Very good. (Laughs) You are here. They have some, such as chamomile, yoga tea, etc.? I have no idea. So it means a lot to me. Well, I like it because it fits the paper I am working on (laughs).

Hank Green: Well, I didn't even answer your question about Tik Tok and how it is different from YouTube. But, like, all these tiny differences.

Chris Hayes: So I want to solve this problem. But on that point, I just want to stick to this point, because that point is really important. For example, what you said about attention economy and attention has priority over other things, right?

So just like its financialization or monetization, just like I know you. I have a relationship with you. You basically caught my attention, right? You succeeded in attracting my attention. Then you want to sell me tea.

I want to buy tea because I don't have a strong feeling for tea brands. (Laughs) I mean, one way to think about the way industrial capitalism produces products is, for example, you start making tea. Then you are like, "We have very good tea. How do we let people know about our tea," right?

Chris Hayes: Then you, from that, from product reverse engineering to advertising, marketing, all the world that pays attention to things. What you just said, right, it's like, the exact opposite, right? Like, that kind of attention relationship comes first. Then there is the product or anything else, because attention is first.

Hank Green: Yes. Yes, I think this will be a major change in marketing in the future. Chris, so I just subscribed to this charity socks, where I was like, “You have to buy socks. Why not buy them from me, all the profits will go to charity instead of going to someone you don’t know Strangers." And that person—

Chris Hayes: This is a good pitch--

Hank Green:-There is already enough money. This is a good tone--

Chris Hayes: This is a good tone. This is a good stadium.

Hank Green: With 45,000 people registering (laughs) for monthly socks subscriptions, this is the literal maximum we can make and ship. We reached the maximum.

Chris Hayes: Did you know? I hope this is not the biggest, because I am listening to something and I need socks. And, for example—

Hank Green: But it's too late now. You missed it. We have a short--

Chris Hayes: I can't join the sock club?

Hank Green: We have a 9-day subscription window. We sold 45,000 socks a month——

Chris Hayes: Oh, my goodness. I should buy encryption earlier. I should get into the damn sock--

Hank Green: --into your socks. It's like, I don't have the time or energy to do this, but I really want to use everything to do that. Like, look at the world now. Like, we know how to make these things. Why do I need--

Hank Green: --All these company stuff try to tell me some brand stories that make me feel warm and vague. Only give profit.

Chris Hayes: Well, this is—

Hank Green: This is how I feel--

Chris Hayes:-Another thing. (Laughs) Well, you know, this is the theme of Naomi Klein’s first big book, No Logo. It’s about the fact, "Look". One of its core insights is like, "Buy everything you have All of them are made in Shenzhen, like 10, they are all factories in Shenzhen anyway.

"Like, the only thing that makes them different is the brand. The brand is the store of value." Because literally, it all comes from the same place. Now, as you might be able to prove, as you can actually go, actually build a relationship with anyone who makes and ships things--

Hank Green: Yes, it is not easy. But, for example--

Chris Hayes: No, no, no, no—

Hank Green: ——Especially now, but, yes, absolutely.

Chris Hayes: Going back to this question, for example, as a medium of information, I think it's interesting, for example, well, YouTube chooses certain things, and then certain things become easier to monetize. So what is the difference between Tik Tok and YouTube?

Hank Green: Obviously, there are format differences. There is a mandatory, you know, format from one minute to three minutes now. You can't go further. You are in vertical instead of landscape orientation. But, like, the real difference is that the whole thing is an algorithm.

Chris Hayes: Yes, yes, yes.

Hank Green: I don't choose what I want to see in a typical Tik Tok viewing session. Every time I swipe another video will appear. Tik Tok chose it, and its algorithm has a pre-existing understanding of what people who have acted like me in the past like.

Then sometimes I see a video on that page. The number of views and likes of the video is zero, because they have been working hard to give new content more life, and, for example, provide an opportunity to show that it is actually just a certain Personal things, like shooting their chicken, did you know?

And, it's like, that video won't go anywhere, but they don't know until they get some data about it. Therefore, because it keeps surfacing, and because it is the only thing that makes a decision, not you, it is very good at discovering.

It is very good at giving people an opportunity, giving content an opportunity, which is impossible to achieve on any other platform, for example, not that way. This will really profoundly change what you do. And it has changed the pressure of creators very profoundly.

Because it used to be (this is what killed Vine, and it is also true on YouTube), there are a lot of people who are really successful. They have many resources. And they already have a pre-existing audience who has an affinity for them. Once the upper-level creators are created, it is difficult to break through the umbrella and get a little light. On Tik Tok, it is much easier.

Both of these mean that, for example, to discover better, creators can find audiences when they can’t find them, but it also means that people who already have audiences are under a lot of pressure. Because it can always disappear. There is always someone waiting to take your place.

Chris Hayes: Wow. Well, this is very profound. I mean, there are two things about Tik Tok that I find very attractive. So for me, the algorithmic thing makes it really different, I mean, it's really different from anything else. You know, one thing I think I like about the Internet (I like Twitter in the early days, and the same for message boards) is that there are so many smart, smart, and talented people—

Chris Hayes: --In an interesting world of observation. You know, on Twitter, you will encounter such a very funny joke, this joke is just a hell made by one person. And there are so many talents. This is something I think Tik Tok really reproduces now, but I found some very random people——

Chris Hayes: --Yes, and super fun or super witty, or a very talented singer, a great dancer. And, like a beautiful patchwork quilt of human talent, like what the Internet is good at, but then it is constantly buried by all the other nonsense on it (laughs).

Chris Hayes: I do think Tik Tok is really good at this, although at the same time you will see the intensity of this imitation means, for example, someone came up with something original and interesting, and then it was like, "Oh, my God, there will now be a billion of these things, a billion (laughter) of these things."

Hank Green: Yes. Then it was gone after a month. If you do something like this within two months, people will say, "Wow."

Hank Green: "Have you been under the rock? Winking." Yes, exactly. (laugh)

Chris Hayes: Well, what does it mean? I guess it’s because it’s an algorithm, and when you say (UNINTEL) followers, this is what I find a little fascinating. So there are two aspects. When you say that because people don't visit people's pages as frequently as that, the typical conversation is that you only need to scroll through the algorithm and it will provide you with something. This also means that A, people can find themselves in the crosshairs of the spread of the virus in one way completely-

Hank Green: Yes, it's just a shocking viral spread. It's like--

Chris Hayes: Shocking virality, right?

Hank Green: It's interesting because one of the things I'm most proud of is being an architect in the community, which includes pruning. You know, this includes saying, "Who is the person who doesn't belong here?" When someone doesn't belong there, we say, "Go away." (Laughs)

Like, if people want to be a bastard, you make them uncomfortable. And when a post becomes viral, you can’t control it. Like, you are often overwhelmed by people who are happy to be mean and like to put up moderate comments.

So not only will you see people who are cruel to you, you will also see 24,000 people agree with this cruel person, which feels bad. (Laughs) It can come from nowhere, or it can come without warning. I think human beings are very, very, very, very malleable. Like, we are very good at this. For example, we can handle a variety of situations.

Chris Hayes: This is our true superpower. We adapt.

Hank Green: Yes. So I think in most cases, the children will be fine. You know, it’s easy to think, “If this happened to me, it would be absolutely fair, just like changing the world, I will never recover from this incident.” But because it’s more typical now, Because maybe you might be okay, I think in most cases, the kids will be okay.

As a father, I am very worried. I think it is difficult to participate in these parts of our children's lives because they are very different from our own experiences. Moreover, in order to really understand how Tik Tok works, it takes a lot of time. You know, it's funny. It's snack time. This is not, like, work. But, you know, it takes a lot of time. And the Tik Tok you will get will be very different from your child's Tik Tok, because it is——

Chris Hayes: --the other part--

Hank Green: --From Tik Tok--

Chris Hayes: --Part of it, yes. Obviously, this is just an iterative change to other things, but frankly, it does feel like a very new thing because of its algorithmic aspect. And I think the algorithm also solves a problem, that is, I think content consumers are facing more and more problems, such as "what am I watching?"

I have always felt completely overwhelmed. It's like, I will only watch the ongoing basketball game in the end, because there is no choice there. Or I would walk around and say, "Oh, I will see this team. I look at the league pass, you know."

But it turns out that taking it away is an incredible and brilliant innovation (laughs) I think. In some ways, many things can be traced back to the future, such as sponsored content, or, you know, reading advertisements yourself, this is what television used to be in the 1950s, you know, for example, the host will go to prepare to do it—— Now, it's like, this is what the web does. The network did not give you a choice. (Laughs) Like, the Internet tells you what you want to watch. They have an algorithm that can loop videos one after another. It is called the program schedule of the network. (laugh)

Hank Green: Yes, I mean, I sometimes want to remind people that we didn't have a recommendation system before. It's just that they are human. They are as flawed as algorithms. And they have flaws in absolutely different aspects.

Chris Hayes: I want to ask you a few audience questions, because you obviously have a large following, a community. People are excited about this crossover drama. Therefore, Casey Brazille from Illinois asked: "Will there be competitors forcing YouTube and its creators to become better collaborators?"

Hank Green: Yes. I think we have seen the opposite. Therefore, for creators, Tik Tok is obviously a worse platform than YouTube. In fact, both YouTube and Instagram are competing with Tik Tok, not through better products, they almost have the same product that is inferior, but through paying more to creators.

Instagram has just announced a fund that pays creators much higher fees than Tik Tok. YouTube is what I think might do the same thing. And the Tik Tok Creator Fund is rubbish. This is rubbish. so terrible. Like, so I like your question and I hope I can give you good news.

But no, the way YouTube shares revenue is that I get 55 cents for every dollar YouTube makes ads on my videos. This is a percentage. In any case, the creator will get a copy. On Tik Tok, no matter how much money the creator makes, you will get a certain amount of money. So they donate a certain amount of money every day. And the money is the same every day. So if there are more views on the platform, your number of views per time will drop, even though they—

Hank Green: --More are being made.

Chris Hayes: Oh, my goodness. They just reset it to zero artificially.

Hank Green: Yes. They said, "We are going to donate 1 billion dollars this year," which sounds great because they donated zero dollars, so I think this is better than that. Then, if the platform develops, Tik Tok earns more, and creators earn the same or less, because more of us get views, which makes me very angry. (laugh)

Chris Hayes: This is another thing we have seen in previous institutional economic arrangements. For example, there is no collective, you know, there is a writers' association in Hollywood. You know, over the years, various structures have been created to prevent creators in different iterations and industries from being torn off by completely predatory companies time and time again. In the absence of those countervailing forces, this is what you get. You will fall into ruin.

Hank Green: Yes. right. It is very easy to do in this situation, because first, most people engaged in this work are in their teens and twenties. So they don’t know the correct compensation, you know, how much (UNINTEL). There is always someone who wants to take your place.

If you want to say, "I won't work on this platform anymore," it's like, "Okay. Okay, there are other interesting people." Then—there is another reason, you know, people It’s not that much talk about it, it’s that people make money in other ways. Just like, there are other better ways to make money than these creator funds, such as doing your own brand transactions and selling your own products.

Hank Green: So it's like, "Hey, if you can create a makeup palette and make $200,000 a year, if we give you an extra $20, what do you care about?"

Chris Hayes: Yes. right. This is a good point. Jack Conner from Georgia asked: "What kind of subscription will you start next to end the terrible and vicious human condition?" (Laughter)

Hank Green: Yes. Therefore, the funds we raised from the Socks Club will be used to build a hospital for pregnant women and their children in Sierra Leone, which has one of the highest maternal mortality rates in the world. One in five women in Sierra Leone may die in childbirth, which is simply unacceptable.

So the numbers have become better and better. We are working with health partners to raise funds for this. This is what the Socks Club looks like. It's like, we need to raise $25 million for this hospital, and we're like, "What on earth are we going to do (laughs)?"

The Socks Club really helps with this. So I think, like, I would love to do more of these things. We are now studying coffee, because, you know, making good coffee is not so difficult anymore. To be honest, this is more difficult than making a great sock. There are more similar things entering the coffee supply chain. But yes, we are researching this because I think people need coffee, man. I do. Definitely.

Chris Hayes: Man, I have to go (laughs) to the first floor of this coffee situation, don’t miss it like a sock, it’s just—

Chris Hayes: --Really, it bothers me.

Hank Green: But I appreciate this question, because it quickly became my most interesting thing (laughs) how do you sell things for charity.

Chris Hayes: It's great to be interested in this matter. Ok. I rushed here only because I wanted to bring the audience behind the fourth wall. I have experienced the most disastrous technology day ever. I used to have such days when every technology I depended on disappointed me at some point today. It drives me crazy. Now I have 10% of the remaining battery power on a laptop designed by Apple with only one USB port. (Laughter) This is the port where I plug in the MixPre instead of my battery——

Hank Green: That's crazy. It's like an iPad——

Hank Green: --At that time. Does it have a port? what happened -

Chris Hayes: Yes. Anyway. OK. So I want to ask one last question, Dan B. from California, this is an interesting question. "Why can't we decide whether a virus, most viruses, are living organisms? What exactly are they?" (laughs)

Hank Green: I mean, this is the thing I hate the most. But I think what we teach is what is wrong with life in school. Do you remember being taught what life is in school? (sigh)

Chris Hayes: Very, very vague, yes.

Hank Green: It is taught as a standard list.

Chris Hayes: Yes, for example, some kind of respiratory disease, you know—

Chris Hayes: --Yes, kind of--

Hank Green: They must copy. They have to, for example, respond to stimuli, for example, just a list of criteria, I think this is basically trying to figure things out, like, "Well, fire is like this, so fire has no life. So let's make sure We have a category that eliminates fire from living things."

I am a chemist, for example, primitive training. Like, this is how I used to make a living. It is clear to me (laughs) that life has a very clear chemical definition, it is any system that keeps away from chemical equilibrium, for example, stays there forever.

There is chemical pressure to keep it away from chemical equilibrium. When we die, when you and I die (when our individual cells die and fall off our body or we excrete them), they return to chemical balance because they are no longer alive.

It's like, it's just, like, it needs to understand what chemical balance is, which may be why it is not taught to fifth graders, but the super cool reality of this definition is that it is an actual definition. You can look at the virus and say, "Is it far from the chemical equilibrium?" Yes, it does. It relies on other living systems to do this, but, for example—

Chris Hayes: Yes. But it is doing this--

Hank Green: --I don't know, neither do I. Like, I eat bread, (laughs) You know, like, I also parasite in some way, wheat can't survive the interaction with me.

Chris Hayes: I want to say it's great to have you here. I think I know you because I have been observing you for a long time and have heard what you have to say for a long time. I am really happy to have the opportunity to talk to you. Is it (laughs) that my GD laptop doesn't--

Hank Green: Can’t run—

Hank Green: —It’s out of power —

Chris Hayes:-A ticking time bomb.

Hankgreen: Let's go until it disappears.

Chris Hayes: No, it makes me nervous.

Hank Green: This is a new podcast format. (laugh)

Chris Hayes: Now this little thing, for example, the low battery thing just appeared, I can feel my entire nervous system, like being nervous under the anxiety that it is exhausted, as if something terrible will happen ( SLUR). All that will happen is that this will be cut off. But I think there is a deep existential fear of it.

Hank Green: Yes. You just released cortisol into your body--

Chris Hayes: Yes (laughs)--

Hank Green: You can feel it in your armpits. (music)

Chris Hayes: The battery is low. Hank Green, video blogger, founder of Vlog Brothers, entrepreneur, now I guess a philanthropist, or a kind of entrepreneur philanthropist podcast, author of books including the beautiful (SIC) stupid endeavors, science fiction novels ,entrepreneur. You can find him on YouTube and Tik Tok. Hank, that's great. thank you.

Hank Green: Yes, thank you very much.

Chris Hayes: Once again, thank you very much Hank Green, he helped us overcome a lot of technical difficulties, (laughs) this really drives me crazy. You can send us feedback about your technical difficulties or podcasts at any time. Email us on Twitter with the hashtag WITHpod and email with pod@gmail.com.

We would love to hear your feedback. We let the Tiffany champion read your stuff. Our new producer, Doni Holloway, will also read the email list. So we definitely want to hear from you. Besides, I should say that we have held some competitions, and I don’t know if you really call them competitions.

But, you know, everyone is doing their Spotify packaging. This is the end of the year that Spotify is talking about. You know, this is what you hear the most. Many people listen to our podcasts on Spotify. So I ask people, if their podcasts are why this is happening? We will yell at the most important people.

And Asher Noble (LAUGH) has an old-fashioned emoji on AsherNoble23, not new, but the actual emoji entered, a colon and a slash, meaning "I don't know," he won. He listened to 45 episodes, totaling 2,495 minutes.

Good job, Asher Noble. We really like seeing it. Why is this happening? Provided by MSNBC and NBC News, produced by the All In team, and sounded by Eddie Cooper. You can visit nbcnews.com/whyisthishappening to see more of our work, including links to the content we mentioned here.

Use the hashtag #WITHpod to email us on Twitter and send an email to WITHpod@gmail.com. "Why is this?" Provided by MSNBC and NBC News, produced by the "All In" team, and sounded by Eddie Cooper. You can visit nbcnews.com/whyisthishappening to see more of our work, including links to the content we mentioned here.